Salutations and happy reread Thursday, our Cosmere Chickens! Things are still winding down, but Sanderson still has some revelations for us, so read on as we continue wading through the denouement after the Sanderlanche.
Reminder: We’ll be discussing spoilers for the entirety of the series up until now. If you haven’t read ALL of the published entries of The Stormlight Archive (this includes Edgedancer and Dawnshard as well as the entirety of Rhythm of War), best to wait to join us until you’re done.
In this week’s discussion we also discuss some things from Elantris and Mistborn in the Cosmere Connections section, so if you haven’t read it, best to give that section a pass.
Shalash for Shallan, and Kalak because he’s literally mentioned.
Icon: Pattern
Epigraph:
Yes, I look forward to ruling the humans.
—Musings of El, on the first of the Final Ten Days
L: Well, that’s not disconcerting at all.
P: Oh, yay. El looks forward to ruling the Radiant humans that he just seemed to be praising.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Shallan
WHEN: 1175.4.10.5 (Note: For the “when” notations, we are using this wonderful timeline provided by the folks at The 17th Shard.)
WHERE: Shadesmar (I think they’re still in Lasting Integrity though we don’t have direct confirmation of this), the plains east of the Shattered Plains (note: I was pretty sure on this one, but not 100%. The mention of the grass really threw me and made me second guess myself. If I got this one wrong, mea culpa.)
RECAP: Shallan drops out of the Ghostbloods for good, conveying a message from Wit to Thaidakar along the way. Meanwhile, Venli arrives at the listener refugees camp and talks them into gaining admittance. She manages to get her mother to bond a spren, and thereby begin the healing process of her mental injuries.
Spren and Shadesmar
“She looks better,” he said, “than she did when I saw her in the market. But I don’t know, Shallan.”
“Testament does seem better, Adolin,” Shallan said. “Thank you for speaking with her.”
P: I can’t help but wonder what Adolin talked with her about and whether she responded in any way.
L: I mean… Adolin being Adolin, I don’t think it mattered what he said, just that he tried to talk to them to begin with. Adolin’s great that way.
It gave them hope that whatever Shallan had done to Testament could also be repaired.
…”And I’m not exactly an expert on all this.”
“Recent events considered? I think you’re the only expert.”
P: She’s not wrong. But Adolin established a relationship with Maya ages ago, before he knew she was a spren. So who knows, maybe Shallan will reach Testament more quickly than he was able to do with Maya, just because she has access and more knowledge than he had.
Radiant remained. They agreed that once they found the right path, she would eventually be absorbed as Veil had been. For now, Shallan’s wounds were still fresh. Practically bleeding. But what she’d done would finally let her begin to heal.
L: I’m so glad to see Shallan on the road to healing at last.
P: I was SO relieved when she absorbed Veil. And to have her acknowledge that she’ll eventually absorb Radiant is reassuring.
Shallan had kept her head down too long. It was time to soar.
L: Yas queen! About time!
P: Preach it, sister!
“I deserve everything you can call me, and more. But I’m trying as I never did before.
L: Venli has certainly never been my favorite character, but I’m really excited to see her progression from here on out.
P: I didn’t like her at all until Timbre showed up. But I like her very much, now. She’s owned up to her mistakes and is trying to be better.
Oaths Spoken, Powers Awakened
Shallan had not one Shardblade, but two.
L: The thing I find most fascinating about this is the possibility of one person bonding more than one spren, of different orders. Brandon has been cagey about this in interviews; most of the time he’s RAFO’d the question, but lately he’s said there’s no hard limit to how many different orders a person could bond to, theoretically.
P: I would really be interested to see someone bond more than one spren. That would be cool, I think.
L: I’m imagining it like the twinborn in era 2 of Mistborn.
…she was certain that, during the years between killing Testament and finding Pattern, her powers had still functioned in some small ways.
L: Oh, well that’s interesting. So the bond wasn’t completely severed then…
P: That’s very interesting. I wonder what powers she thinks she retained and what she might have been able to do with them.
Some of this, Kelek said, had to do with the nature of deadeyes. Before the Recreance, they had never existed. Kelek said he thought this was why Mraize was hunting him. Something to do with the fall of the singers, and the Knights Radiant, so long ago—and the imprisoning of a specific spren.
L: Whoa wait a second! That seems like a HUGE thing to just casually drop here!
P: I wish we could have seen these conversations with Kelek!
“I’ve been speaking to Kelek, the Herald. He seems to think the reason you’re hunting him is because of an Unmade. Ba-Ado-Mishram? The one who Connected to the singers long ago, giving them forms of power? The one who, when trapped, stole the singers’ minds and made them into parshmen?”
L: Hold up a tick. Is this new information?! My memory being what it is, I don’t recall whether or not we knew this already.
P: Well, I didn’t recall so I checked with the Coppermind:
“Ba-Ado-Mishram was able to supply the singers with Voidlight and forms of power, making singers into Regals.”
“She was a primary instigator of the False Desolation, leading to her imprisonment by the Knights Radiant, which put the vast majority of singers into slaveform, and affected all spren on Roshar.”
I obviously need to lose myself in the Coppermind now and then. And I’m dying to know how she affected all spren on Roshar.
L: According to that, we learned a lot of this in Oathbringer. Hooboy. Clearly I need to do a reread before book 5 drops…
P: Same!
The Reachers were searching for people who exemplified their Ideal: freedom. And the listeners were the perfect representation.
L: Interesting that freedom is the primary trait these ones are looking for!
P: The listeners really are perfect for the Reachers! ::warm fuzzies::
Cosmere Connections
Shallan lifted the top of Mraize’s cube. With help from Kelek, they’d gotten it open without harming the thing inside: a spren in the shape of a glowing ball of light, a strange symbol at the center. No one here recognized the variety of spren, but Wit called it a seon.
L:Elantris alert!
P: Hello, little seon!
The odd spren resisted attempts to get it free. It acted… like an abused child.
L: Poor little seon. I wonder how it’s functioning so far away from its home planet and the investiture there…
P: It seems to function as it should, but the poor thing is just so traumatized.
L: Understandably! It’s been stuffed into a box for storms alone only know how long. And that experience is enough to traumatize anyone! ::cough Rand al’Thor cough::
“Thank you for this seon, by the way. Wit says that unbound ones are difficult to come by—but they make for extremely handy communication across realms.”
L: Well this chapter is just chock full of interesting revelations, isn’t it? The seons being able to communicate across realms must be a huge benefit to the world-hoppers!
P: That is mind-blowing! And so freaking cool!
L: I’m also curious about it being “unbound.” You know… Hrathen used to keep his seon in a box, too. I wonder if this one was his…
Secret Societies
“What power do the Ghostbloods seek with a thing that can bind the minds of an entire people?”
L: Normally I would say “nothing good” to that question, but seeing as how Kelsier’s leading the Ghostbloods…
P: I’m still so wary of Kelsier. I just don’t know what to think of him or whether to trust him.
L: That’s fair. Like Wit, we know that Kel is willing to do pretty much anything—or sacrifice anyone—to achieve his goals.
“Thaidakar?” Shallan guessed.
“Ah, so you’ve heard of him?”
“The Lord of Scars, Wit calls him.”
L: Speak of the devil!
P: There’s the man himself!
“Tell him… we’re done with his meddling. His influence over my people is finished.” She hesitated, then sighed. Wit had asked nicely. “Also, Wit says to tell him, ‘Deal with your own stupid planet, you idiot. Don’t make me come over there and slap you around again.’”
L: ::snort:: Oh, Wit.
P: Oh my Honor, this made me laugh this afternoon when I reread this chapter. So funny. This could go in Buttresses.
History, Geography and Cultures
This eastern plain beyond the hills was a strange place—so open, and full of a surprising amount of grass.
L: Sounds like they’ve made it over to Shinovar, but that can’t be right. Shinovar’s waaaaaaaaaaay over to the west… I wonder why there’s grass here?
P: This made me wonder, too. Like why is there grass in the east?
Flora & Fauna of the Physical Realm
A shadow fell over Venli, and she started, staring up at a powerful long neck with a wicked arrowhead face on the end. A chasmfiend. Here. And no one was panicking.
L: Okay now this is just awesome. I can’t wait to see characters riding these into battle.
P: Right? It’s going to be so storming awesome.
Arresting Artwork
Shallan reached forward and flipped to the next page in her notebook, where she’d done a drawing using Kelek’s descriptions. It showed a pattern of stars in the sky, and listed the many worlds among them.
L: Isaac Stewart did a beautiful star map which I believe is depicting this.
P: Gorgeous.
We’ll be leaving further speculation and discussion to you in the comments, and hope to join you there! Next week, we’ll be back with chapter 116. Only three more chapters left, chickens…
Paige resides in New Mexico, of course. She is so stoked because it’s Opening Day! Welcome back, baseball. Go, Yankees! Links to her other writing are available in her profile.
Lyndsey lives in Connecticut and makes magic wands for a living. She’s also the costumer for two of her local Renaissance Faires and acts at many more. If you enjoy queer protagonists, snarky humor, and don’t mind some salty language, check out book 1 of her fantasy series. Follow her on Facebook or TikTok!
Paige lives in New Mexico, of course, and loves the beautiful Southwest, though the summers are a bit too hot for her... she is a delicate flower, you know. But there are some thorns, so handle with care. She has been a Sanderson beta reader since 2016 and has lost count of how many books she’s worked on. She not only writes Sanderson-related articles for Reactor.com, but also writes flash fiction and short stories for competitions, and is now at work on the third novel of a YA/Crossover speculative fiction trilogy with a spicy protagonist. She has numerous flash fiction pieces or short stories in various anthologies, all of which can be found on her Amazon author page. Too many flash fiction pieces to count, as well as two complete novels, can be found on her Patreon.
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oafgeek
2 years ago
For the grass, if I recall correctly it’s not that there isn’t “grass” in the East of Roshar, it’s just that what is called grass by those people is a kind of rockbud that retreats when stepped on, while the grass of Shinovar is more conventionally familiar grass that we’re familiar with but was thought of as especially dumb when Rysn first visited there. Presumably, where conditions favor it the rockbud grass can thrive and lives under the ground being buried by layers of crem (a burrowing lifestyle in a world of rocks); probably areas that provide both enough rain and have sufficient drainage to not bury the grass faster than it can grow would be relatively rare, so a proper grassland like that would be exceptional.
Very exciting to be so close to the end again here. I’m starting my own reread in the near future, all on audiobook for the first time (hopefully it will help correct my pronunciation assumptions from my first read). It’ll be my first full reread so I look forward to seeing everything with the full context of the later books and all the theorizing and analysis from here!
Steven Hedge
2 years ago
The seon’s reaction, like an abused child is interesting; if only because of some nasty implications. In Elantris, Hrathen had seon locked away, and yet that one acted normal, polite, and willing to serve. Hrathen even had some thoughts about this, wondering what the seon felt about the way its treated, locked away in a box. The fact that this seon is more afraid makes me wonder what exactly Mraize did to it.
Now that Rayse is no longer holds the Shard Odium, does raysium still work as an element?
I may have made this point before, but I think it is appropriate to make it again. I liked how Brandon has started to get Shallan back on the road to a type of acceptance with who she is. I liked how she came to realize that Veil was just a part of her (not a separate persona). Nevertheless, I wonder if it would have been a better moral (for lack of a better word / maybe truer to real life DID) that Shallan has to learn to live and cope with her personas rather than reach a healing via integration. At least the healing was through Shallan’s understanding herself (i.e., coming to terms with her past) rather than a “magical” cure.
Lyndsey. I have a small critique. I do not think it is appropriate to say that Shallan on the road to healing. Rather, she is on the road to acceptance of her mental state. I do not view Shallan’s situation as something with which she needs to recover. Instead, I see it as a part of her that she has to accept. Perhaps I am trying to split hairs where there is no hairs to be found. My question (and I have no answer): Is DID a condition/injury for which someone can recover from or rehabilitate (such as an illness or an injury)? Or is DID a part of a person and he/she needs to accept the DID for the individual to move forward?
@@.-@ – I think it’s an interesting question and may probably depend on the specific person. I have children on the autism spectrum (and share a lot of traits with them) and wouldn’t see that as something to be healed, but I totally would have my excessive anxiety/depression healed.
Obviously, I don’t have DID, but to me it doesn’t sound like something I would enjoy or function well with – but one of the things I particularly value in life is integration/wholeness and accepting all parts (even seemingly contradictory things, or things you might rather not have, or darker aspects) as being part of yourself and not shunted off. So for me such a thing would be a symptom of something deeper that did need to be resolved.
However, I do know in life we all at times adjust the ‘mask’ we present in different circumstances.
So, I don’t know. I imagine people have different perspectives. But I do think for Shallan, healing is embracing all parts of herself as a wholeness and also accepting that the people in her life (such as Adolin) also embrace all of those parts of herself and not just the specific persona she thinks he likes.
Beth Hamilton Gianakouros
2 years ago
Many thanks as always, ladies! I do so love Thursdays.
I am anxious to see Adolin bond Maya and Notum. He already shows the characteristics of an Edgedancer, but I see Windrunner in him, too, and Notum has a connection to him. I think Kaladin could attract a Cultivation spren, too. Can you imagine both of them double bonded? Gives me chills.
@3. AndrewHB. Now that Rayse is no longer holds the Shard Odium, does raysium still work as an element?
I think the naming convention is to use the Vessel’s name in the metal to avoid confusion (would Odium refer to the Shard or the God metal). This is certainly true in The Lost Metal (spoiler warning: Harmonium is split into Atium and Lerasium).
Hey, @Moderator! How did @RogerPavelle end up posting two posts both numbered “6”? That should really be impossible (in my opinion as really out-of-date coder).
Shallan’s map can’t show Roshar, like the one quoted in this article. That’s where Shallan would be standing. Kelek himself is not a Worldhopper, is he? And where the heck is the artist mentally standing when he/she/they draw that star map? Yolen? Is that not the only major planet not actually shown on the map? I would think it was drawn on a planet, because it has constellations, something that requires a culture to generate (in my opinion).
I’m sort of amazed Brandon/Isaac didn’t sneak another unknown world in there just to mystify the fans.
The star map illustration is the endpaper from Arcanum Unbounded. I think they included it here as an example of what Shallan’s map might look like.
Inahc3
2 years ago
@@.-@ from what I’ve read, it does depend a lot on the person. I also have a pet theory that a vital part of healthy integration is consent from the alters involved (proper free and informed consent, not the shitty uninformed/manufactured consent that the fused abuse). I was glad to see Veil go willingly, but Shallan wasn’t totally on board with that iirc; I guess we’ll see how well it settles in the next book. and I’m glad Radiant stuck around and acknowledged that this is a journey that’s going to take a lot of work still.
Shallan’s dissociation was initially the result of a huge trauma, partially self-inflicted. It was a coping mechanism to deal with memories too hard to face. When she matured enough to face those memories and accept the truth, she no longer needed the coping mechanism. The fact that she used the same mechanism to deal with different aspects of the same original problem means that she has multiple identities to reabsorb, and the way she used those different identities means that she still has work to do. In the end, though, for Shallan, “reabsorbing her other personas” and “healing” are the same thing. This is not necessarily true IRL, or at least not for everyone.
Re: the star map, IIRC the perspective of the artwork is from Silverlight (or rather, from its analogous position in the physical realm, since Silverlight itself is in the Cognitive realm). Definitely not Shallan’s view of the stars, of course, though depending on the actual position of Silverlight, she might see some of the same constellations, or reasonable similarities, during the course of a year on Roshar.
For the grass, if I recall correctly it’s not that there isn’t “grass” in the East of Roshar, it’s just that what is called grass by those people is a kind of rockbud that retreats when stepped on, while the grass of Shinovar is more conventionally familiar grass that we’re familiar with but was thought of as especially dumb when Rysn first visited there. Presumably, where conditions favor it the rockbud grass can thrive and lives under the ground being buried by layers of crem (a burrowing lifestyle in a world of rocks); probably areas that provide both enough rain and have sufficient drainage to not bury the grass faster than it can grow would be relatively rare, so a proper grassland like that would be exceptional.
Very exciting to be so close to the end again here. I’m starting my own reread in the near future, all on audiobook for the first time (hopefully it will help correct my pronunciation assumptions from my first read). It’ll be my first full reread so I look forward to seeing everything with the full context of the later books and all the theorizing and analysis from here!
The seon’s reaction, like an abused child is interesting; if only because of some nasty implications. In Elantris, Hrathen had seon locked away, and yet that one acted normal, polite, and willing to serve. Hrathen even had some thoughts about this, wondering what the seon felt about the way its treated, locked away in a box. The fact that this seon is more afraid makes me wonder what exactly Mraize did to it.
Now that Rayse is no longer holds the Shard Odium, does raysium still work as an element?
I may have made this point before, but I think it is appropriate to make it again. I liked how Brandon has started to get Shallan back on the road to a type of acceptance with who she is. I liked how she came to realize that Veil was just a part of her (not a separate persona). Nevertheless, I wonder if it would have been a better moral (for lack of a better word / maybe truer to real life DID) that Shallan has to learn to live and cope with her personas rather than reach a healing via integration. At least the healing was through Shallan’s understanding herself (i.e., coming to terms with her past) rather than a “magical” cure.
Lyndsey. I have a small critique. I do not think it is appropriate to say that Shallan on the road to healing. Rather, she is on the road to acceptance of her mental state. I do not view Shallan’s situation as something with which she needs to recover. Instead, I see it as a part of her that she has to accept. Perhaps I am trying to split hairs where there is no hairs to be found. My question (and I have no answer): Is DID a condition/injury for which someone can recover from or rehabilitate (such as an illness or an injury)? Or is DID a part of a person and he/she needs to accept the DID for the individual to move forward?
@@.-@ – I think it’s an interesting question and may probably depend on the specific person. I have children on the autism spectrum (and share a lot of traits with them) and wouldn’t see that as something to be healed, but I totally would have my excessive anxiety/depression healed.
Obviously, I don’t have DID, but to me it doesn’t sound like something I would enjoy or function well with – but one of the things I particularly value in life is integration/wholeness and accepting all parts (even seemingly contradictory things, or things you might rather not have, or darker aspects) as being part of yourself and not shunted off. So for me such a thing would be a symptom of something deeper that did need to be resolved.
However, I do know in life we all at times adjust the ‘mask’ we present in different circumstances.
So, I don’t know. I imagine people have different perspectives. But I do think for Shallan, healing is embracing all parts of herself as a wholeness and also accepting that the people in her life (such as Adolin) also embrace all of those parts of herself and not just the specific persona she thinks he likes.
Many thanks as always, ladies! I do so love Thursdays.
I am anxious to see Adolin bond Maya and Notum. He already shows the characteristics of an Edgedancer, but I see Windrunner in him, too, and Notum has a connection to him. I think Kaladin could attract a Cultivation spren, too. Can you imagine both of them double bonded? Gives me chills.
I think the naming convention is to use the Vessel’s name in the metal to avoid confusion (would Odium refer to the Shard or the God metal). This is certainly true in The Lost Metal (spoiler warning: Harmonium is split into Atium and Lerasium).
Hey, @Moderator! How did @RogerPavelle end up posting two posts both numbered “6”? That should really be impossible (in my opinion as really out-of-date coder).
Shallan’s map can’t show Roshar, like the one quoted in this article. That’s where Shallan would be standing. Kelek himself is not a Worldhopper, is he? And where the heck is the artist mentally standing when he/she/they draw that star map? Yolen? Is that not the only major planet not actually shown on the map? I would think it was drawn on a planet, because it has constellations, something that requires a culture to generate (in my opinion).
I’m sort of amazed Brandon/Isaac didn’t sneak another unknown world in there just to mystify the fans.
@7 Carl
The star map illustration is the endpaper from Arcanum Unbounded. I think they included it here as an example of what Shallan’s map might look like.
@@.-@ from what I’ve read, it does depend a lot on the person. I also have a pet theory that a vital part of healthy integration is consent from the alters involved (proper free and informed consent, not the shitty uninformed/manufactured consent that the fused abuse). I was glad to see Veil go willingly, but Shallan wasn’t totally on board with that iirc; I guess we’ll see how well it settles in the next book. and I’m glad Radiant stuck around and acknowledged that this is a journey that’s going to take a lot of work still.
Just reading the credits … I see our hosts have been helping Brandon out on another book, just released (in digital form) today.
Just a couple of thoughts:
Shallan’s dissociation was initially the result of a huge trauma, partially self-inflicted. It was a coping mechanism to deal with memories too hard to face. When she matured enough to face those memories and accept the truth, she no longer needed the coping mechanism. The fact that she used the same mechanism to deal with different aspects of the same original problem means that she has multiple identities to reabsorb, and the way she used those different identities means that she still has work to do. In the end, though, for Shallan, “reabsorbing her other personas” and “healing” are the same thing. This is not necessarily true IRL, or at least not for everyone.
Re: the star map, IIRC the perspective of the artwork is from Silverlight (or rather, from its analogous position in the physical realm, since Silverlight itself is in the Cognitive realm). Definitely not Shallan’s view of the stars, of course, though depending on the actual position of Silverlight, she might see some of the same constellations, or reasonable similarities, during the course of a year on Roshar.
Thanks, Alice. I hope you’re doing well.
Thanks, Carl. I am indeed. :) fwiw, I do still follow the reread; I just haven’t commented much. Y’all are still my friends!
Woo an Alice sighting!